March 05, 2005
TIME Magazine - The Math Myth
Posted by Jess in
Tech Talk
This month's issue of TIME Magazine strikes home. The cover story? The Math Myth - The real truth behind women's brains and science. I just found out about it this morning, so I have not had time to buy the magazine, but I did have access to a sub-article online on the same topic, "Bad Idea: You'll Flunk Out".
The author, Pat Galloway, states that she had trouble in college and beyond by being told she was in the wrong field (engineering). She was in college in the late seventies, So I definately went later. But she and I had similar experiences.
Pat was told time and time again by her college guidance counselors that engineering was not for her. This is not unlike the time I had gone to ask for help after I had done poorly on a test. My professor took out his grade book. "Let's see.. as it stands right now, there are only two other people who are doing worse than you in this class." squinting at the book "Oh - wait. They dropped out. You're at the bottom of the class. It's time to come to the realization that computer science is not for you."
I can look back on that and wonder, though. Is the perceived "gender gap" sometimes just an emotional gap?
Could men shake it off and keep going, while women take it to a much deeper personal level? Maybe it has nothing to do with skill. It's interesting, because this point never comes up in articles like these. How do we, as women, know we're being treated differently? How do we know it's not just us reacting differently?
There's the science behind our brains, and the emotional decisions our brain makes for us. It's been called into play time and time again, but to me, there's no question that there are differences. It's what makes us men and women!
You do have to take this blog entry with a grain of salt... after all, what do I know? I can't read a gender-biased article and pretend to be an expert on a subject that's been under close scrutiny since the first caveman hit a woman over the head and dragged her into his cave. This is something that I can't oversimplify. But I can word-vomit... and I may even surprise myself by what I end up typing.
I'm finding that when I'm facing gender pressure about something I'm GOOD at, the more I'm razzed about my gender, the more I enjoy sticking it to them. I think I've mentioned this a few times about playing pool. I don't know how many times I've had a good run getting shots in, to hear the jokes, "You're huslting us, aren't you?" Uh, nope, I'm not. If I was hustling you, that would mean that at some point, I had previously indicated to you that I couldn't play. But you came up with that judgement all on your own! But I'll crumble when it's an issue over something that I'm not good at, as if I was expected to fail, and did.
I'd prefer to stay as objective as possible, which I suppose is kind of an oxymoron as I'm simultaneously typing how I also take things personally. I don't quite know how to explain that one. See, the only big issue I have with the article is that it didn't cover the other end of the spectrum, such as the fact that I'm sure men face the same pressures when entering fields that were traditionally held by women. However, given the headline of the magazine, it seems that would be out of the scope. Well, a future issue, maybe?
I'm ten years older now, and ready to battle my demons. But this logic also holds true; I'm ten years older emotionally, also. If I went back to school for C programming, I would not be so quick to be bullied out of my first love, nor would I hesitate to stop the class if I did not understand. Nobody but me is responsible for my actions and decisions.
Of course, as far as this guy is concerned, apparently I'm lucky I can figure out how to tie my shoes every morning...
For clarification, "this guy" is NOT Stan. I'm talking about the other commenter that kept making me feel like I had gotten a big slap in the face every time he posted. But I guess that comes with the territory of having a blog, eh? I'll take the bad with the good any day.
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Interesting. Being a white guy, I operate under the assumption that I had every conceivable advantage during school. Per your linked earlier post, I even tested well on the SATs, I'm afraid, but I've always maintained that my true level of intelligence is significantly lower than my high scores on a particularly easy-for-me style of test - I believe I get more than 50% of the questions right even when I don't know the subject matter, just by the nature of the test.
I have a daughter now and given her parents' levels of geekiness (me, programmer, Mom, doctor [who was told as a pre-med, by her male advisor, that she would never make it...]), she's likely to have some interest in the sciences. She may not, but the odds are in that direction. I will be very interested in how she is treated by the various authority figures she encounters during her education.
Um, I hope I'm not "this guy". Really, I do.
Wow Stan, I apologize, I didn't even think there was a question as to whom I was referring to.
No, I'm talking about the OTHER guy. The one that ended every comment telling me I wasn't smart enough to go to college at all.
Sorry you took that too much to heart, Jess. It's just that I was one of the "majority shareholders" in that conversation, and I didn't want to point fingers. Then again, I'm somewhat paranoid at the best of times -- or am I? What do I REALLY know about me?
Stan? Paranoid?
Wait a minute... what Stan? :-P
great joy being here. great place my friend.
Hello Jess, I hope you don't mind me posting (first time). I usually keep to myself but this thread looks like it needs a comment from another woman.:o) It is also a topic I find fascinating.
I too am a woman in the technology industry. In university I was a mathematics and computer science major. I recall my Number Theory course had only eight students. (Surprisingly, Number Theory was not a popular class. :o) Seven students were male and of oriental descent, and to contrast, one was a curly, blonde haired, white female. Does anyone think that maybe the professor reacted to me differently than the other students? Then, did his reaction result in a difference in the way he treated us? Of course it did.
Then ask if that was just MY perception.
In high school, some other students and I tried a few experiments to see how we were treated based on our gender and race – asking the same questions, gauging the reactions. There was a difference. I’ve been reading some of what you and Stan Rogers wrote and of course the gender bias extends beyond math and science and education to playing pool, riding a motorcycle or walking into Home Depot to buy a compound miter saw. If it was my husband, would he be asked if he needed to be shown how it works? Does this kind of thing happen the other way around? Sure, but not as much I don’t think. When my husband goes into Linens-n-Things to buy a fish poacher, he isn’t offered lessons.
That being said, I think you are right – it is due to the fact that men and women are, in fact, different and we react differently to each other, but I don’t think that has anything to do with our abilities or potential or who is applying a gender stereotype.
Your and Stan’s comments about exams and testing are right on the money too. I don’t believe they tell anything about anyone except that they know how to take a test (or not). I think standardized tests have been developed by your average person for your average person and do not calculate intelligence or ability in any way, nor does the level of education you may possess. Another student I went to school with had a photographic memory and aced every test he ever took but being able to remember a large amount of information does not imply the understanding of that information or the ability to use it. Regurgitation is not ingenuity. I’ve known college professors who CAN’T tie their own shoes and a welder (Stan, is this a ‘menial trade’?) who could figure the stresses and angles and sizes for a race car roll cage just by looking.
Is it because we are reacting differently than a man would? I was raised by my parents, a computer/electrical engineer and a computer programmer/teacher, to have no doubts about my mental abilities and what I could do if I wanted. That gives me a good grounding where I adapt in different ways so that I can still do these things and be accepted. If I react differently than another woman in a similar situation and it results in a different outcome, that doesn’t mean the gender bias was not there for both of us. That would have me come to the conclusion that we are treated differently at times and our reactions are not creating something that isn’t there.
Yes, Jennifer -- it is a "menial trade", or at least that's the way it's perceived by far too many people. As in the case of your rollcage wiz, though, it's easy to see that there's a lot more involved than a certain facility with one's hands in a lot of trades. Unfortunately, most people who become tradesmen (and women) sort of fell into the trade because they couldn't hack it in the academic streams in High School. Not because they're idiots (or, rather, not ALL because they're idiots -- we have to allow for stupidity in all strata), but because their learning styles didn't quite jibe with the teaching methods being used.
I've pretty much covered my thoughts on the matter in a posting on my blog:
http://stanrogers.blogspot.com/2005/03/girls-math-stuff.html
I hope that if you read it you're not put off by the apparent bias in the first couple of lines.
Jennifer, thanks so much for posting (and reading, for that matter, too). :-)
Ok, you got me thinking. I always lean towards the benefit of the doubt to be fair, but the more I think about it, the more I do think I'm not overreacting, I suppose. I had completely forgotten the same experiments I had done as you, except in my case it was bringing my car to a mechanic and asking if the clutch could be adjusted. When I asked, no it could be adjusted. When my friend Jay asked at the same place about the same car, sure! They could do whatever he needed. I wouldn't have been so upset except that it wasn't entirely just an experiment, my car really needed adjusting!
We do learn differently, and think differently, and I think we should celebrate our differences. As I said in the blog, that's the very spirit that makes us men and women! There just needs to be more compensation somewhere to account for that learning difference.
The opportunity for greatness should be available to everyone. Hrm, I may have to print that and put it on my bulletin board. :-)
There's very few women who don't take offense at the good ol' "women drivers" cracks. But I have to be honest, I don't take offense because scientifically I believe it to be true (in fact, I made a crack about it myself in the "women and sci-fi" post previously). Women have different depth perception than men. But that doesn't mean that a women should not be given the same opportunity, or first be *expected* to be bad at something. I think that's what I'm trying to say. Bear with me. :-) I had a tangent, I think I lost it, lol.
My father's been the only one who could successfully explain the concept of binary to me. I guess he just knew how I needed it explained. But the important thing is that I understand, and that's really the ONLY important thing. Who cares how I get there? Once the lightbulb turns on, with true understanding, I don't think a person will ever forget how that thing works.
Wow – where to start – I didn’t get to read the article, but I have read similar ones for years. I tend to dismiss concepts of innate abilities of one gender over another, based on personal experience, but then I check my ego and realize that my opinion is in itself biased….anyway – here’s my story and a little opinion. I was out on what I think is seen by some today as the leading edge – I graduated in the Fall of 1979 in Mechanical Engineering. There were 4 women in ME, but more in the other schools (Civil, Electrical, etc). And as an aside, we were all clustered very near the top academically.
I went to NCState – which has never been confused for its more liberal cousin over in Chapel Hill, but I have to say that I never, not once, ever was discouraged in any way by classmates or professors. The reasons for this can be a topic of many long conversations (I may toss some of these out when my own blog comes online later this year), but some ideas are: (a) It happened and I was too clueless and headstrong to notice, (b) They were afraid of me because I grew up with brothers and could cuss and fight like any boy (c) I was not what you’d consider a classical beauty, so was seen as less of a threat or even (d) It didn’t happen. I was also a bit older than the average student, having worked a while at menial jobs before deciding that the pay stunk, and college might be better, so that may have been a factor too.
I am shocked, perhaps naively so, Jess that you were discouraged. I know about how much older I am than you and would think that they’d be over that. Who knows why it happened – perhaps the guy was just a jerk. There are still far too few women out here in geekdom, but maybe there are enough that men see us even more as a threat. I hope that’s the case anyway.
Back to the math thing – I never had a choice to do poorly at math. Like Jennifer, I was expected to succeed, and in our house that meant A’s in everything – no exceptions. I get angry when I hear girls say that math is hard and that they can’t do it. That’s BS – and I do think that teachers, especially at the grammar school level let girls get away with it. And while understanding math doesn’t guarantee that a girl will go into science, it certainly leaves those doors open to her.
I don’t know where the answer lies, but I have a friend who went to all-female schools until she hit Graduate school, and she says that things were far different that what her daughter experienced. Maybe the segregated classes that some schools are trying will help. Nothing will change though until we change our expectations for our little girls – and for that matter our little boys.
Enough for now - we can go on longer later.....but that's another gender-based discussion in itself
Susan, thanks for sharing. And I can't wait until you start blogging, btw.
Yeah, he said those things, and my other professor who was also my guidance counselor said the same things... So I changed majors. But gender aside, I was also a naive 18 year old college freshman who still had four years to go before her first college payment was due.
Now I've got 30 more years of those payments, but we won't get into that. :-)
If/when I go back to school, I'll be older, wiser, and paying the same semester I'm going. There's no way I'd let anyone get away with comments like that now... I wouldn't have left that office until I understood the concepts!
